Overheating when under load

n_greenn_green Posting Freak
edited January 2018 in Technical
https://youtu.be/DePaODT2rr8

https://youtu.be/1OeZhjAiHQg

Towing a 1.5t camper trailer. Empty 2015 trend line fitted with canopy, afn bullbar, runva winch and in bonnet dual battery system on outback armour suspension on 32" all terrains.

Radiator fins are clean, well I've hosed the fins out 4 times now from the front and the last two times the water was coming out the back clean.

Had egr cooler replaced under warranty by my local VW dealer at 28,000ks after it let go but I caught it very early so no other damage. Did Vic high country straight after without issue. Came home and towed a 1.5t trailer from Sydney to Mudgee and back and the temp gauge started moving as above.

This is the hottest it got:
c104002fc4eb3387586ca4c1dd7e8d1e.jpg

It went in for 30k service with vw the next week and they were told about it. No fault codes reported no leaks under pressure test a 'road test' in Sydney couldn't replicate problem so given back to me with "no issue".

Went camping with my 1.5t camper and temp gauge was moving as above up every decent hill. Took in in to vw again, same tests, same results.

Then it started doing it when there was no camper being towed. Up big hills where the engine is under a lot of load it's getting hot.

Fitted an ultraguage and attached the camper and went for a drive and recorded the above videos. That afternoon I got a tune and had the egr cooler deleted/bypassed. On the way home it took slightly longer for it to heat up but it's still doing it.

With just a 100kg dirt bike on the hitch carrier on the weekend the coolant temp got up to 113 degrees up a decent hill. (Side note the ute ate the hill up now it's tuned did it so much easier then it did pre tune)

Spoke to a few independent euro specialists who both said it's possible the thermostat.

Looking at euro forums it seems the thermostat is something that can play up on these and is something replaced under warranty over there.

Contacted vw, told them the story, they are familiar with it anyway by now being back 3 times in 3 months for same thing, told them advice I'd received re thermostat. Booked it in with them and it got dropped off today. They have it over the weekend. They've run the same old tests with the same old results (who was it that said insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results?!) but are holding on to it pending advice from VWA after they view the videos as the local dealer has no experience with this particular problem.

Whilst I'm waiting anyone else had/having this problem? If so has it been fixed and what was the issue?

Any experience old school mechanics that don't rely on a computer to tell them what the problem is want to offer an opinion
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Comments

  • DrewDrew Super Moderator
    edited September 2017
    Hey Nathan,

    They looks normal to me. The temp in the instrument cluster is gearbox temp, so I can only reference it to what our Passat does.

    Our Passat when towing easily hits similar temperatures on hills or under load, but quickly drops off when back on the flats or not loaded up.

    My Rok is a manual, and I don't have a fancy temp gauge being a 2013, but towing the camper up to Queensland earlier in the year, I regularly saw 110-115 on the ultragauge when pulling super hard in the hills. Temps are normally 94-98 when towing on the flats. No gearbox temps are able to be read in the manual, but could feel the heat through the transmission tunnel, so I'm tipping it was warm...

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  • Patrol 1Patrol 1 Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    Has the coolant level dropped and do you notice any water gurgling noises in the heater core on startup?

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  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Hey Drew, I always thought it was gearbox temp too on the dash display but I've had several people including vw mechanics now tell me it's the engine oil temp?
    If it only did it on massive uphill climbs I wouldn't be concerned. But it's started doing it more regularly/easily. On the way to get the tune the other day driving along the freeway between Sydney and Newcastle it was hitting 110 degrees coolant temp just driving along the flat into a strong headwind. That can't be normal.
    I've hooked the ultraguage and the camper up to a 2012 standard manual with no mods. Hottest it got to was 98 degrees coolant temp. Couldn't get it any hotter even dragging the trailer brakes and labouring it. On the same stretch of road in identical
    Conditions 15 mins later mine was hitting 108 degrees.
  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Patrol 1 wrote: »
    Has the coolant level dropped and do you notice any water gurgling noises in the heater core on startup?

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

    Not since VW replaced the egr and bled the system properly. That was 5000k ago
  • DrewDrew Super Moderator
    edited September 2017
    n_green wrote: »
    Hey Drew, I always thought it was gearbox temp too on the dash display but I've had several people including vw mechanics now tell me it's the engine oil temp?
    If it only did it on massive uphill climbs I wouldn't be concerned. But it's started doing it more regularly/easily. On the way to get the tune the other day driving along the freeway between Sydney and Newcastle it was hitting 110 degrees coolant temp just driving along the flat into a strong headwind. That can't be normal.
    I've hooked the ultraguage and the camper up to a 2012 standard manual with no mods. Hottest it got to was 98 degrees coolant temp. Couldn't get it any hotter even dragging the trailer brakes and labouring it. On the same stretch of road in identical
    Conditions 15 mins later mine was hitting 108 degrees.
    Doesn't the manual say it's transmission? I can't recall...

    I found that post-tune my coolant temps are 3-4 degrees cooler under pretty much all conditions, but they do jump up and down rapidly when towing.

    Who's tune do you have, and have you checked the basics like the electric fan being connected? Some tuners and dealers disconnect it when they're flashing the car, as it introduces a low battery condition, risking bricking the ECU. Could be of you had a flash done for a recall that it's not connected?

    Easy enough to check - throw the bonnet up after a drive and see if it's running...



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  • ScotRokScotRok Supporting Member
    edited September 2017
    It's the gearbox oil temp.
    If it was engine oil the water temp would be up more too.
  • WinchyWinchy Forum Addict
    edited September 2017
    Whether it reads engine or gearbox temp should be in your vehicle manual in the instrument cluster section.
  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Drew wrote: »
    Doesn't the manual say it's transmission? I can't recall...

    I found that post-tune my coolant temps are 3-4 degrees cooler under pretty much all conditions, but they do jump up and down rapidly when towing.

    Who's tune do you have, and have you checked the basics like the electric fan being connected? Some tuners and dealers disconnect it when they're flashing the car, as it introduces a low battery condition, risking bricking the ECU. Could be of you had a flash done for a recall that it's not connected?

    Easy enough to check - throw the bonnet up after a drive and see if it's running...



    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

    I always thought it was transmission too. When I get my Rok back from VW I'll check the manual.

    J-tech tune. And yep thermos are still connected. They are always roaring even under normal conditions which again makes me think mine is running hot. No recalls on mine that I was told of.

    What concerns me is it heats up not only when towing but on its own now. Driving from Sydney to Bathurst last weekend temp coolant hit 113 degrees going up the hills on bells line of road and the temp gauge was moving between 90 and 100 every time I hit a hill. This is with an ambient temp of around 10 degrees. What happens in 40 degree summers?. I've owned the car since new and the first 28,000 k of its life the temp gauge never moved. Not when towing, not doing billy goat bluff in the high country or monkey gum fire trail in nowra and especially not on bells line of road between Sydney and Bathurst.

    Something has changed that won't throw an error code and is allowing the car to get hot but not overheat and throw a code. From what I've been told by a non vw mechanic who is a reputable euro specialist the only things in the cooling system not monitored by the computer for faults are the mechanical thermostat and mechanical water pump. With 32,000k on the clock I doubt it's the water pump and so did he.

    If I was out of warranty I would have booked it in with him and just got it fixed. Unfortunately I have warranty til April and I needed it looked at this week, because on Tuesday it's meant to be towing my camper and family to the flinders ranges. Can't wait to drive skytrek and see what the coolant temp goes up to......[emoji35]
  • WinchyWinchy Forum Addict
    edited September 2017
    Wonder if there's excess carbon build up in the top end? That will cause higher combustion temps.
  • DrewDrew Super Moderator
    edited September 2017
    n_green wrote: »
    I always thought it was transmission too. When I get my Rok back from VW I'll check the manual.

    J-tech tune. And yep thermos are still connected. They are always roaring even under normal conditions which again makes me think mine is running hot. No recalls on mine that I was told of.

    What concerns me is it heats up not only when towing but on its own now. Driving from Sydney to Bathurst last weekend temp coolant hit 113 degrees going up the hills on bells line of road and the temp gauge was moving between 90 and 100 every time I hit a hill. This is with an ambient temp of around 10 degrees. What happens in 40 degree summers?. I've owned the car since new and the first 28,000 k of its life the temp gauge never moved. Not when towing, not doing billy goat bluff in the high country or monkey gum fire trail in nowra and especially not on bells line of road between Sydney and Bathurst.

    Something has changed that won't throw an error code and is allowing the car to get hot but not overheat and throw a code. From what I've been told by a non vw mechanic who is a reputable euro specialist the only things in the cooling system not monitored by the computer for faults are the mechanical thermostat and mechanical water pump. With 32,000k on the clock I doubt it's the water pump and so did he.

    If I was out of warranty I would have booked it in with him and just got it fixed. Unfortunately I have warranty til April and I needed it looked at this week, because on Tuesday it's meant to be towing my camper and family to the flinders ranges. Can't wait to drive skytrek and see what the coolant temp goes up to......[emoji35]
    I'd be leaning towards the water pump, but the thermostat is an easier first fix

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  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    What would cause that?
  • DrewDrew Super Moderator
    edited September 2017
    n_green wrote: »
    What would cause that?
    Possible that it's seized, or bad bearing. If the thermostat wasn't opening at all, you'd most likely have cooked it by now...

    Is the heater still working?

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  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    It still gets up to temp as quickly as it always did. Heater works fine. So thermostat is closing/allowing the water temp to get hot.
    It will cool down to normal temps quickly once the load is taken off it so thermostat is opening and allowing water to circulate through the system.

    The cooling system just can't keep up under load, to me that is either due to restricted flow of coolant (partially opening thermostat or damaged/inefficient water pump or blocked/obstructed cooling tubes in the radiator) or inefficient heat transfer due to blocked cooling fins in the radiator. At the same time though it's allowing enough coolant through the system so it doesn't boil.

    It has me stumped. If this was happening to my motorbike or an old car I'd start with removing the radiator, making sure it flows properly and the cooling fins are all clean. I've hosed the fins out 4 times now and the water has been clean the last 2. Still no guarantee the fins are not blocked somewhere the hose can't get to but most of it is clear.
    Then I'd replace thermostat. Usually cheap option not so much on the amarok.
    Finally the last option is water pump.

    32,000k, 99% of that is on tar road. I doubt internally the radiator is blocked. Externally it doesn't seem to be either. That leaves thermostat or water pump. Both a bastard of a job. But that's VWs problem not mine. I hope.
  • DickytickerDickyticker Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    Hi guys,
    I haven't been on the forum for a while, and this post got my attention.
    My MY14 Highline is at 3 tonne all the time. Average oil temp is around the 110. Towing the cub camper I have seen the high 130's. I was concerned with this also and consulted my mechanic who said that oil starts to break down at 130. Not very reassuring.
    I went for a run today from Bathurst to Rylstone and back and kept an eye on the oil and water temp gauges.
    Big hills with the foot down got the oil up to 132. Couldn't help myself having some spirit on my own.
    Water temp went up as well but not above 100.
    Last Christmas holidays towing the cub was the highest I have ever seen the oil temp. Big hill fully loaded cub and Rok and a bloody hot day.
    My conclusion is that my Rok runs hotter than I thought was normal, but with no apparent other effects. It cools down as quick as it goes up.
    So for now, I will keep on rokking as I have been, and continue changing the oil every 7500. Might even bring that back to every 5000 if I can get the cub out more often.
    Love the Rok and wouldn't mind a V6, but that would mean a caravan and retirement. Not quite ready for that yet.
    Cheers
  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Hey mate. When you say the water never went above 100 is that on the factory dash temp gauge or an ultraguage?
    From what I've seen my temp gauge won't move off 90 until the ultraguage is at 108 degrees. From there it stays about 15 degrees below the ultraguage. So 115 on the ultraguage is only 100 on the factory gauge.
  • DickytickerDickyticker Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    No ultra guage just factory.
    I do have DashCommand app and a WiFi OBDii adapter, but had a few probs with that today
  • iainmaciainmac Member
    edited September 2017
    saw oil temp of 103 today (v6 not towing anything 10 min run back from shops, although i just got it 2 weeks ago so i'm still a bit heavy with the foot and making myself grin lol)

    thought that was a little high for the very light journey
  • iainmaciainmac Member
    edited September 2017
    http://bricklin.org/TechCentral/TCArticleV6n2p5.htm

    not sure if this guy knows his stuff or not but sounded quite logical, anyone know what the radiator comes with in the v6? coolant I would expect over water?
  • RokhardRokhard Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    iainmac wrote: »
    http://bricklin.org/TechCentral/TCArticleV6n2p5.htm

    not sure if this guy knows his stuff or not but sounded quite logical, anyone know what the radiator comes with in the v6? coolant I would expect over water?
    I have known radiator hoses to get soft with age and when the engine is working they collapse on the suction side of the pump causing similar issues. I know the hoses on the Roks change with age and this is also true of the air intake hose, it collapses with high turbo suction that is why you should check these out. Also an easy fix and wont cost you the bank. My Rok benefitted hugely from the improved silicon air intake hose which your tuner should have recommended.
    Good luck

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  • RokhardRokhard Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    iainmac wrote: »
    saw oil temp of 103 today (v6 not towing anything 10 min run back from shops, although i just got it 2 weeks ago so i'm still a bit heavy with the foot and making myself grin lol)

    thought that was a little high for the very light journey
    Nothing to worry about, mine varies from 118 to 126 when towing a big van, it needs to get over 100 deg to boil off any fuel and condensation, another reason to go for a blat on the highway every now and then. 118 to 120 is normal when everything is fully warmed up

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  • RokOnV6RokOnV6 Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    I have the manual in front of me right now. I quote " Digital oil temperature display:- Current temperature of the ENGINE oil display digitally "
    So it is engine oil and NOT gear box temp.
  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    RokOnV6 wrote: »
    I have the manual in front of me right now. I quote " Digital oil temperature display:- Current temperature of the ENGINE oil display digitally "
    So it is engine oil and NOT gear box temp.

    [emoji106]
  • Patrol 1Patrol 1 Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    Wanting to hear the outcome of this one. I have the same vehicle, mileage, tow a van and starting to get the same symptoms. Its typical of a radiator starting to block up internally.

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  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Well the good news is my dealer mechanic agrees there's something wrong that could cause problems and wants to investigate further. But because the work would have to be done as a warranty repair VW australia needed to approve the work first. Which they did. Today.
    Unfortunately I picked it up at 4pm yesterday because I had to pack it and leave for Adelaide in it this morning. So when I'm back in three weeks I'll book it in and leave it with them and see what they can find out.
    For now I'm treating it like a princess and driving like a 80 year old grey nomad in a patrol, by the time I summit most hills I'm doing 70-80kph even though I could easily maintain 100-110 just to reduce the load and heat. No point in stressing the engine any more then it possible already is. So no updates from me for the next two weeks.
  • DickytickerDickyticker Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    Keen to see your outcome.
    Safe and trouble free travels ��
  • stu9stu9 Member
    edited September 2017
    I found this interesting. Three auto Roks just finished a 7-8000km trip, culminating with crossing the Simpson Desert. I was towing an Avan camper trailer, about 1300kg. We all registered external temperatures over 50°C one day crossing the Simpson. The highest digital engine oil temperature I noticed was 122°C dragging the camper through soft sand over the dunes. I didn't notice the gauge move at any time, but wasn't paying a lot of attention to it either. I have seen the digital engine oil temp sitting at 125°C or 126°C on the highway towing the camper, but usually a bit less.

    Our Rok is just over 2 years old, with 62,000km on the clock.

    Stu
  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Here's a baffling outcome. For two days the overheating issue went away. Day 1 of my trip I drove from Sydney to Yass. Was getting hot as per 'normal' for my ute and didn't take much at all for the coolant to hit 110-112 degrees. Stopped at yass for lunch for an hour. Jumped back in the ute and drove for another 3 hours to Narranderra. Not many hills on this trip but a decent headwind the whole way and I overtook a few trucks so the engine was working. Ultraguage would go up to 106-107 but would not go any higher.
    The next day travelled for 5 hours and again it would not get hot. It would get up around 106-107 but no hotter. The factory gauge won't move from 90 until ultraguage reads 108 so if it wasnt for the ultraguage I wouldn't have known it was getting warm at all.
    The second half of the first day and the entire second day were all mid 20's temps.
    First half of first day was in the teens.
    Third day of trip was low teens.
    Overheating issue is back. There was one long massive hill coming into Adelaide. I let the cruise control set at 103kph try and maintain my speed up the hill.

    This is the result. https://youtu.be/rSoJS7R50Po

    Buggered if I know, is it a coincidence that it seems to overheat when outside temps are below 20? I can't see how. Back to babying it for the remainder of the trip
  • RokhardRokhard Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    n_green wrote: »
    Here's a baffling outcome. For two days the overheating issue went away. Day 1 of my trip I drove from Sydney to Yass. Was getting hot as per 'normal' for my ute and didn't take much at all for the coolant to hit 110-112 degrees. Stopped at yass for lunch for an hour. Jumped back in the ute and drove for another 3 hours to Narranderra. Not many hills on this trip but a decent headwind the whole way and I overtook a few trucks so the engine was working. Ultraguage would go up to 106-107 but would not go any higher.
    The next day travelled for 5 hours and again it would not get hot. It would get up around 106-107 but no hotter. The factory gauge won't move from 90 until ultraguage reads 108 so if it wasnt for the ultraguage I wouldn't have known it was getting warm at all.
    The second half of the first day and the entire second day were all mid 20's temps.
    First half of first day was in the teens.
    Third day of trip was low teens.
    Overheating issue is back. There was one long massive hill coming into Adelaide. I let the cruise control set at 103kph try and maintain my speed up the hill.

    This is the result. https://youtu.be/rSoJS7R50Po

    Buggered if I know, is it a coincidence that it seems to overheat when outside temps are below 20? I can't see how. Back to babying it for the remainder of the trip
    Still think its a faulty thermostat or collapsing hose when you have a few revs on

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  • n_greenn_green Posting Freak
    edited September 2017
    Rokhard wrote: »
    Still think its a faulty thermostat or collapsing hose when you have a few revs on

    Sent from my SM-T805Y using Tapatalk

    My money is still on thermostat too. It cools down too quickly for it to be something like a dodgy water pump.

    Collapsing hose is an interesting thought.
  • RokhardRokhard Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    n_green wrote: »
    My money is still on thermostat too. It cools down too quickly for it to be something like a dodgy water pump.

    Collapsing hose is an interesting thought.
    Yeah the hoses on the Rok get soft with heat and age, and can collapse on the suction side of the water pump when demand is high, usually when engine revs are up, its a cheap fix to replace it when you get to the next town with a vw dealer in , and if that doesnt fix it ,its probably a good idea to renew the hose anyway. It eliminates one possible source at low cost :)

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